Hello Citizens! It’s time for Episode 9 of 10 for the Producers!
Eric Kieron Davis: EKD
Darian Vorlick: DV
Having heard more about the role you play in previous 10FT Producers videos, I wondered if you could explain any differences between being a producer and being a traditional project manager. Is this more down to industry terminology or does a producer entail more staff management than would be expected in typical project management roles? Could I become a project manager in my current company and one day take the jump to becoming a videogame producer?
EKD: Great question!
DV: It is, and there’s a lot of yes and nos to that.
EKD: I think the reason this one’s so tough is because there are so many intertwining responsibilities for these two roles.
DV: Yeah, they have a lot of overlaps.
EKD: The term gets bandied about differently based on region, based on organization, based on company, based on people’s previous experience. There are a lot of similarities. There are a lot of crossover. We do budget reviews, we do schedule building, we do team management, we do personnel management and even within CIG we have some project managers and some producers and we are overwhelmingly intertwined quite a bit.
EKD: So, to your first question, yes there are a lot of similarities between the two and it’s a lot of preference based on the company itself and based on what their previous experience has been. And then to your second question, could I become a project manager in my current company? Yeah, totally. Absolutely. There are skills that you would learn at a regular software company doing project management, specifically project management…
DV: There’s even certifications. Like PMP certifications on Scrum.
EKD: Absolutely. These are all techniques that would help you understand what it would take to get a project done within games.
DV: A good example of this is my brother. He is a technical project manager for another video game company and he actually doesn’t actually touch the games himself which is why he’s not considered a producer at that company. He is an internally-facing producer. So, in that company, he is considered a project manager because he deals a lot more with the console side of the technical aspects of it. Where people on his team who are actually game-facing, they are considered the producers at that company.
EKD: Yup, totally. You’ve seen it where some companies will deem somebody producer because they may have a little more creative input, let’s say, than a project manager. So, it really does depend on the company and it’s more important to look at the job description more than anything else, or what the person’s looking for, if you’re going for a job as one of these two roles.
Both: Good question!
With the apparent style of WW2 dogfighting in Star Citizen, will CIG add various tobacco products to the game, such as: cigars, cigarettes, and pipes that players can smoke and do you envision them being illicit?
DV: Well that’s not a directly production related question. It does relate to outside aspects of game development. Which is ratings system such as the ESRB and which rating does our game fall into. Because that kind of activity is considered adult only that may bump a rating up to mature or higher. Where in-game violence because it’s much more cartoony can be downgraded to like age 13 and up. So whether we’ll have it in the game… we haven’t really set our ESRB rating just yet. So it’s kind of one of those unknowns and it depends on what kind of market you want your game primarily to appeal to. Something like Grand Theft Auto, obviously a lot of adult themes therefore it’s going to have a mature rating. Do we want to have that kind of rating? I don’t know, it’s entirely up to Chris where he wants the game to go. But I believe mass appeal is the direction that we’re going with cause we want this game to be accesible by a large audience. So while there may be you know a seedy bar kind of setting that you land on a planet where you can get bounty hunter missions and stuff like that. What kind of activities those characters will be up to, kinda still left up in the air.
EKD: Yeah, and if you go back to the lore or to the writers. What should the universe have in it? What should the characters have in it, right? I think that’s something that’s in Chris’ head.
DV: Right, does it serve a function.
EKD: Exactly. I don’t know if it’s you set out to make something you go, “I am definitely going to have that in my game.” It’s like well, does it inspire the world that the person’s going to be in. Does it immerse them into this universe? And if smoking is supposed to be a part of it, then sure, right?
DV: Or is smoking completely just outlawed in this universe.
EKD: You got it. You never know, in the future it may never exist. All tobacco plants, gone.
DV: Just dead.
EKD: You never know.
EKD: But good question. Next up. Fallen? Do you think Fall-un or Fal-lun.
EKD: See? Fal-lun. Alright Fall-un or Fal-lun, either way great name.
Hey there, I am planning to enter the industry after university, I am planning on being a 3D environment artist. From your experience working with them, specifically the fresh meat. Would you suggest spending time going and working on a specific theme or style, an aesthetic preference or tailor to more realism regardless.
EKD: This is a great question
DV: This is all you.
EKD: So from what I have seen from the artists I have worked alongside is do what inspires you more than just doing something that the industry requires. Like if you love sci fi, you love space ships, focus on that. Focus on 3D environments for that. There will be companies out there, like ourselves, that are looking for that kind of talent. If you like cartoony, If you like big world, if you like lots of color then do that but what I have always recommended to new artists going into the industry is look for your dream company or dream game and build your portfolio on that. If you get a interview at a company that just does 3d environments that is just forested stuff and all you have is this industrial, broken down rusted environments then they are going to go “well I don’t know how to value you here, I don’t know what I can use you for in the gaming we’re making. We don’t have any of that here. So how do you do forests?” So it more comes down to what you see in the industry that excites you, what you think your strengths are and tailor it to your strengths and building a portfolio around that. I have seen a lot of really great new artists that really just touch everything and that way that can see what they are skilled and talented at so they can tailor their portfolio to the company they are going to work for and this works pretty well so your question of what should you focus on – I can’t give you an answer as it depends on what you want to work on and what art you want to make or what kind of game or movie or whatever it is you want to go into it’s really driven by you and what excites you, from what I have seen with most artists it’s what they are passionate about is what they are going to do the best.
DV: It also helps to keep an open mind as far as being fairly versatile because there may come a point where you have a skill set or art style that your company likes but at some point they may ask you to do something else totally outside your comfort zone because the needs of the company or the project need you to do something else and if you are not invested in that or that’s a skill set you don’t have then you or the company may be unhappy with the results. It does pay to have a diverse skill set at least to begin with.
EKD: I don’t disagree but with some of the portfolios I would be looking at with some of our artists and art directors – say you are applying for a senior vehicle artist role and you have just done a bunch of forest stuff. I can’t associate what you do with vehicles or with the thing you are applying for. If you are going to apply for something or a company you want to work for… have your diversity but still build your portfolio around what they are looking for at that time. Because we don’t have a ton of time to look through everyone’s hundreds of pages of images to see you are really good at that one thing. I wish we had the time to do that, this is why on portfolios we say “front load, give us your best stuff right away” so you can really give us a sense of who you are. But it does help to do your homework on the company you want to work for, build your portfolio around it, and when you apply really put that stuff up front.
I was wondering why was the call made to merge Star Marine and Arena Commander so early in the build? Could we have kept them separate and thus allowed updates to Arena Commander to continue while Star Marine was polished?
EKD: This is a great question.
DV: And it’s a very difficult question to answer because there’s a lot of facets involved in that decision. Ultimately that decision falls on Chris. Once facet of that decision is ease of development. If we kept the builds separate while we continued to work on Arena Commander… by the time we were getting ready to release Star Marine, we’d have to merge those builds back together again and that can cause all kinds of unknown problems and bugs. Because, as we iterate down the road, there are going to be unique developments in that particular build on Arena Commander that may not happen in Star Marine, so when we go to merge the builds all those bugs that we fixed in Arena Commander may either resurface in Star Marine or things that were going smoothly in Star Marine may cause bugs in Arena Commander. So, having them developed simultaneously in a seamless system makes it a lot easier. Things like changing the skeletons for the animations on the characters – having them unified is a good way of doing that. So, without going into a multihour long discussion about the logistics, probably one of the best ways to describe it is for developmental purposes of keeping things very similar to one another to avoid having bugs.
DV: I hope that works for you.
EKD: It was directed at you.
DV: Well, also just really quick if you go to the website, if you look at Chris Roberts’ Star Marine and FPS update, it does give some information on the development of this. On why certain things have happened within development of Star Marine. So you may find some information relevant there as well. I highly recommend reading it – it’s a very good writeup by Chris.
I’ve actually been a little curious about that myself. Is there any kind of default experience that’s looked for as far as Producers position? I’ve debated trying to get into the industry (possibly even with a Star Citizen studio) but don’t exactly have any direct experience. However I am a veteran of the military going on almost 15 years, and have organized a variety of projects with in it and in my civilian life as well. Would that exclude me still for lacking a generic college degree or would I be able to find an open minded company on that aspect?
EKD: Thank you for serving.
DV: Oh, that’s a really good one.
EKD: That’s a good question, and no you would not be excluded from a role. It depends on the job. With your experience if it makes sense would you be able to jump right in and get a producer level role at some company? Maybe not, right? But the fact that you’ve got project experience, right? That you’ve done projects in some form or fashion. That you can speak intelligently about how you got that project from the beginning to the end. Those are great traits, they’re skills you learned that we use every day that will help you in this environment. Would maybe a production assistant or coordinator role or even a associate producer role at certain companies make more sense? Probably, right? But it definitely wouldn’t… there’s no specific degree that would get anyone any higher than the life experience you would bring to the role itself.
DV: It’s one of the industries that I’ve seen is a very even playing field. That oftentimes it’s what you know not necessarily where you went to school.
EKD: Yup, absolutely, absolutely.
DV: Let’s look at Blizzard. How many producers, how many senior producers did we know that never even went to college.
EKD: Sure, absolutely.
DV: One of them was like an air conditioning repairman. One just worked at dot com sales. They eventually became senior and lead producers.
EKD: Yep. It’s a very young industry. So we still have a lot of… we don’t necessarily have a full degree program out there. I think they’re starting to pop up more for games. But we don’t.. most of the leaders of the industry don’t necessarily come from a games school focused background, right? They got into the industry, they loved it, they worked their way up. They learned the industry. They want to make the industry better. And so I think all that kinda combined, yeah you could totally get a role within some kind of producer role at some kind of game studio. I don’t see why not.
DV: I am gonna actually add something, just as a little nod to Alex Mayberry. Something he told me back when we were at Blizzard.
DV: If you’re looking to get into production. Don’t look at it from the perspective of, “Well I am not an artist, I am not a programmer, I am not a designer, I am not an engineer, so what’s left for me? I think I’ll try production.” That is the wrong reason to get into production. you have to have a very dedicated love for it. You have to love looking at spreadsheets, keeping things organized. Now you with a military background, that would obviously… having that discipline would help greatly. But it’s something that you have to have a passion for. If you’re someone who just went by default, “Because I can’t do anything else in the industry, I might as well get into production.” I’ve historically seen a lot of people who go that route tend to have a lot more trouble within the industry. So find some.. If you just want to get into the industry, pursue a course that you want to. If you want to be a designer, start designing mods for different games, things like that. If you want to get into production, that’s a very very specific skillset and discipline to pursue.
EKD: Yeah. Absolutely. So, great question, and there’s definitely still an opportunity out there for you.
EKD: For sure.
Here’s one I’ve asked myself a few times given the advent of early access games.
Given that Star Citizen requires near constant iterations and updates to a playable build baneky Arena commander and soon Star marine, does this help or hinder the progress of the overall project? If you didn’t have to plan for these playable branches, would production of the game be further along, or is it just another layer in the game development process that only requires minimum attention and resources.
DV: It’s for efficiency purposes. Because developing them at the same time keeps them all unified as we move forward. So does this help or hinder the overall project? Probably a little bit of both. I know the Arena Commander guys would rather just solely focus on Arena Commander and the Star Marine guys would love to just solely focus on Star Marine – focusing on just that particular aspect of development – but given that our global office has to keep their eye on the ball with everything that everyone is doing, it does both help and hinder the project.
EKD: Yeah this one is a really great question because there are a lot of companies that are starting to try and do this. You have essentially a live game that you are supporting while you are creating a game at the same time. A lot of companies have done this by separating the development teams and having a live team versus the people who are creating it…
DV: You are doing production and preproduction at the same time.
EKD: Exactly exactly. Not necessarily the case for us. I don’t know if it hinders because there are a lot of things that mesh well. We benefit a lot from things that have come up during the live build that we can then put into what we are trying to develop at the same time and vice versa. And because we are working on it at the same time we are more agile with moving that stuff around. Maybe a little bit of both but I definitely think it definitely helps a little bit more to have that live feedback and to get people playing it and when people play our game it gets us excited. It makes us want to make more.
DV: it also doesn’t help that we are kind of spearheading this. This is a brand new kind of project and we are paving the way. I wouldn’t say we are learning as we go but we are breaking a lot of new ground here so there is going to be learning experiences as we go.
What do you think about presenting the project status page
in a better way and show some love so that every backer also some that were away for 6 months or longer can see what is the current game status and what stuff is currently worked on for the next patch in 2 minutes?
EKD: He was referring to a page that someone was using more like a scrum board. So, this is a really great question. This is something we struggle with all the time – we have a lot going on all the time and internally we have a lot to track, we have a lot to manage, we have a lot to keep on top of and to keep our developers and ourselves focused. To keep focused on getting out a product. So, we have our amazing community team down here that works really closely with us that just tries to pump as much information out as possible. So, going from the very high level – one word, this is the status of that – into a breakdown for each single one of those I think is a great idea and I think it would be something we’d love to do. I don’t know if it’s feasible in the short term but I definitely think it’s something we’d love to do. Some way we can provide you guys a lot of information quickly so that if you do go away and are like, “I’ll be back when you have more game done.” and you come back and can see where we’re at. I think it’s a great idea. We’ve definitely looked at stuff like that, I just don’t know if we’re at that place yet.
DV: I don’t know how well it would help transparency either. I guess because so many features get pushed up and pushed back on a regular basis just even within the Arena Commander team – Calix could be working on one thing one moment and then because we have a deadline coming up he may have to shift focus on to something completely different. And unless you’ve got one of the Cloud Imperium guys or ladies constantly updating, “He’s shifting focus because of this.” Without that kind of context, it will look like we just stopped developing it and we don’t want you guys to get the wrong impression that we’ve stopped working on something when that developer is simply just shifting focus on to something else for the moment.
DV: So, while we’d like to be able to give you those kinds of updates on a regular basis, we’d have to kind of unify on how we wanted to deliver that and how we would provide context on what’s going on. I think that’s a very challenging thing, especially with how open our development already is in the first place.
EKD: Totally, and going back to what Darian said about breaking new ground, right, we’re doing new things. Some things that a lot of us didn’t do at previous organizations and things we’re even learning how to do with you guys. So, I think we’re constantly learning along the road of… how can we be transparent and provide information but how can we get things done at the same time because that’s two full-time jobs. Two full-time things we need to do. So, we’re always looking for ways to do that. Great question and a great reference, thanks for referencing that link!
Any tips for setting realistic time frames, especially when dealing with something the team hasn’t done before? Would you consider it better to work in a certain amount of flexible time to the initial schedule for when things run over, or is it more like a plan runs off track and you start fresh from where you are now?
DV: That actually pretty much defines what a producer does – keeping things on track. There are always going to be surprises that pop up unexpectedly. if things ran perfectly like on a train track it would make production way too easy of a job. So, things are going to pop up. Schedules do skew. Suddenly a blocker bug – something that prevents us from finishing the task that we’re working on or prevents us from actually releasing it publicly because this bug is so severe, obviously that is going to take a higher priority and that’s going to steer a lot of resources away from certain aspects depending on how sever that issue is. So, in a nutshell it’s going to be a ubiquitous yes and no.
EKD: Sure… and I think to your first question about when you’re working on something brand new or someone is working on something they’ve never worked on before how do you bid out that work to understand the full scope of it.
DV: And how do you set realistic time frames.
EKD: Yeah, that’s a very very great question and it’s very difficult. Especially if, let’s say you don’t work in the industry and you just want to make a feature for a game that already exists or get an SDK and start building something with a designer and a programmer and an artist. You’ve never done it before so how do you bid it out. That’s a great question. The biggest thing is you try to use folks who have done it before. Right? We try to reach out to people who have done it before. First within the company – go, “Hey, have you worked on this before at a previous company? Or even here as we have multiple locations. At your location, how did you do that or what would your bid be for that?” to kind of give us set timeframes. If you don’t have that at all, it’s just kind of an instant. Right? It’s breaking down that task with the person who is going to do the work the best they can, go, “I think that would be this amount of days and this amount of days,” and you just schedule that out and then you’ll likely be wrong… hopefully too long so you can go, “Look, we go it done sooner!” but that’s not always the case. So, sometimes it’s just trial and error and that’s how it is when you’re doing something you’ve never done before, right?
DV: Ultimately it becomes a kind of skill set that you just kind of develop over time. If we’re developing a brand new torpedo model. Historically you look at – okay, Dan developed this model in three days, Patrick animated it in a day and a half… so if this is going to be much bigger how do we scale it up? Okay, last time it took us four days so let’s add a couple extra days for QA time, some play testing… so let’s make it a week. So kinda start learning how to gauge things like that but ultimately any time you put a schedule together for production purposes – almost kind of a golden rule is the minute that you put that schedule out it’s going to be outdated and wrong right away.
EKD: That’s right.
DV: Because scheduling is always going to be just a series of best guesses anyway.
EKD: That’s right and our job is to update it every day and move things around every day and bring up red flags where we’re like, “Hey, the original idea was this. It looks like we’re not going to make that date. Are we all okay with that? What should we shift around to make that happen? We do that all the time.
What signs do you look for indicating feature creep has begun to infiltrate into the production of a game? What specifically have you done to ensure that doesn’t happen in Star Citizen? Finally, have you developed a place for interesting concepts/ideas that would be considered feature creep now, but could be exciting additions after SC is officially released? Have any of these ideas already been given a green light for post release creation?
DV: It’s what we have a backlog for.
EKD: Yes. So can I backwards forwards on your questions. Yes, absolutely, right? We have a backlog of everything. Everything that’s come up in any meeting we try to capture. We have this massive, as much as we possibly could…
DV: Sky’s the limit ideas.
EKD: Sky’s the limit. Those blue sky ideas, scope. Just go to town. You always want to encourage folks to get that out of their head. It gets excited, “Well what if it could do this, and this, and this.” We’ve all done this, growing up as kids with our… we make things up when we play. You know we all do this, we have imagination. So we do encourage that, we want that to happen. And then we capture that in the backlog and then we take that backlog and that’s when we would filter out future sprints or future milestones or future deliverables, whatever word you want to use. For us it’s future releases. When we come up with a patch, we’ve got a few patch plans coming up and what we’d like to come out in that patch. So we definitely do this, frequently, all the time. What have we done to ensure on Star Citizen? That’s a good question. Because we’re doing something new. We’ve got a lot of great backers and subscribers that are helping us make this. And we want to do something really cool and we want to do something really big. And something unique.
DV: No shortage of ideas.
EKD: And no shortage of ideas. So we are constantly as producers working with this blue sky idea and then trying to put it in reality. So we can actually get something out for us all to play and have fun with. This is a challenge. This is a real challenge for us. And we’re every day, I mean today, we had meetings about things that we’re like, “Oh that’s a great idea, but it’s out of scope.” How can we still get this out and then maybe make version two or three or four of it. I think I saw this on one of the questions I don’t think we’re answering today was, “How do you say okay we’re done we got a thing out we want to play it and now we’ll iterate on it.” And you’ll see this with people that sell their games for consoles and then you go to play it and there’s a 500mb patch immediately. That was the same thing, they had to get it out, they went gold master, they got out the product. And they’re like, “But we got all this other stuff we wanted to fix or get out there.” And I think that’s kind of just the way now with this constant downloading, streamable world we live in. It’s actually a reality without impeding our player base or our wonderful fans or our wonderful folks that are playing our game. So we’re balancing that. We’re always trying to balance that. So how are we ensuring it? By just looking at the schedules, the realisticness of our schedules and nature of our dates. How to get things out quickly and make sure people are having fun with this. And then we try to be realistic in every meeting we go to. Every time we bring it up we always are the reminder like, “Hey guys we’re still trying to shoot to get this done Friday. What do we need to do to do that?”
DV: A lot of times producers have to be the bad guy that just says, “No. We can’t do this for now. Maybe later, but right now. No.”
EKD: Yeah and a lot of times people understand, they’ll work with us on that. We’ll raise it up as a red flag again like I said before and usually people are like, “Okay, okay you’re right. We can’t, that’s not realistic without working 24/7.” Which as much as we all want to do this because we love this project. It’s not physically or humanly possible.
DV: And you hate curbing… brilliant suggestions. Especially when you have a lot of visionaries like Chris, Ben, Dan, everybody who contributes to the design of this game. You have such a collection of brilliant designers and ideas that it’s really hard to say, “No we can’t do this one right now. Let’s do it later.” Because you want to incorporate them all because like the designers, we want to see this thing happen.
EKD: Yeah, that’s right. And to answer your question about do we already have a green light for post. Yeah, we have an idea of.. you know we want to release this stuff at this time frame. But we still want to put this other stuff in. Based on what we did in our initial kickstarter versus what we’re still fundraising. We’re looking at okay how can we continue to release those past our original schedule or roadmap.
DV: Yeah we’ve got some long term stuff roadmapped out.
EKD: There you go.
DV: And those roadmaps will change, probably each patch. But we still try to keep it a long term vision.
EKD: That’s right, the best we can.
DV: Alright, last question.
Dear producers, We have seen the process of fixing bugs on bug smahers. “Awesome programer sits down, thinks, and magic code fixes fly out of his fingers”
DV: Is that what Mark does?
EKD: That’s what he does, yep.
EKD: No, I know.
Is the process of implementing a new feature similar? A lot of people seem to think so. Could you walk us through beginning to end, the process of taking a feature, from an idea out of Chris Roberts’ head (or someone elses) all the way to being played on our computers, including some obstacles you run into and how you overcome them?
DV: That’s actually… it’s kind of a sequel to this question here on a lot of times we do have to limit those ideas. A good example of that would be… the Vanguard that Calix… It was a variant that Calix was working on. And he had this idea of a certain role that he wanted the variant to have. It was a great idea but once the ship team and the designers and the production sat down and looked at how does that variant fit with the rest of the functionality of that ship realized it wasn’t one that fit with its role. So we had to kind of cut that variant out and then just start building the rest of the variants from there. Or at least I’d design and document the design briefs on how we wanted the rest of the variants to go. So to kind of echo what Eric was saying last question, we do have some blue sky ideas. So we sit down, we look at what we want to have in each fixed version that we’re releasing, each patch. So for example right now we’re getting ready to work on 1.1.5 and then after that we’ve got the next version after that, next version after that, next version after that. We have what features we want listed for those versions and that pretty much helps us plan out what tech we need to have ready by when. What ships do we have to have ready and flyable by a certain date. And that dictates what tasks we give to our designs, our programmers, our artists. So by having those ideas roadmapped out, roadmapping those actually is a skillset in itself. Because we can’t just say you know, “This month we want one ship that does this. Next month we want a hundred people to be able to fly all these ships around the planet at the same time.” That’s not very realistic. So we have to have at least realistic expectations when we put these plans together. But this is where a lot of communication for production comes from, talking with designers, talking with artists. And you kind of come to a consensus on what’s possible, can we do this, is this a good idea and the direction we want to take the game. And ultimately Chris is the ultimate authority on whether something.. on whether we want to take the game a certain direction or not.
EKD: Yeah. And I think to part of the question about the feature as well. There’s the planning and the ideas and then there’s the work time. And that’s kind of the magic, that’s the magic fingers part. We get these really talented people together, they construct a plan for how to get this done, we help track it, we help keep them on pace to make sure we hit those deadlines. We work together, things fluidly move around as quickly as humanly possible to get it done. And then magically it’s done. We test it with QA, we make sure it works, and then we get it out to you guys. So without going into taking a feature and then saying this artist did this, and this developer did that, and this programer did that, it is kind of magic. It’s just you get a bunch of very good people who know exactly what they’re doing with their job and they take pieces and they are really proactive with it and get it done. Cause we’re all super passionate about what we’re doing.
DV: And a lot of things that go on behind the scenes that you don’t see is someone staying here till one o’clock in the morning just waiting for someone in the UK office to get in just because they have to ask them a question regarding something that needs to be fixed right away.
EKD: That’s right.
DV: So there’s a lot of challenging things that go on behind the scenes. It’s not as easy as you know Mark having magic fingers. As much as we wish him to have magic fingers to be able to just fix things on a whim, he just waves his keyboard wand and everything just gets fixed.
EKD: laughing Yeah that’s right.
DV: There’s a lot of difficulty that goes into that.
EKD: That’s right.
EKD: There you go.
EKD: I hope we answered your questions
DV: Um, this team is team Purple People Eaters. They’re both wearing purple shirts.
EKD: Laughing. I don’t know how this happened.
DV: Yeah, this was not planned. We promise.
EKD: Yeah, yup.
DV: So. First off we wanted to thank all our subscribers and our backers for being able to make shows like this happen. Without you guys this would not be possible. So, a heartfelt thank you.
EKD: And thank you to everybody.
EKD: Thank you for everybody that’s interested in watching this and hanging out with us every day. Or at least when these come out.
DV: So I am Eric Davis.
EKD: What, no you’re not. That’s not who you are. If you’re going to be Eric Davis you should be Eric Kieron Davis.
DV: Okay, I am Eric Kieron Davis.
EKD: There you go. And I am Darian Vorlick.
DV: Signing off. Thank you guys.
EKD: See ya.